Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
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friendless
Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
Aspetta un attimo che ti dicano cosa chiedere però ... io ho solo buttato lì 2 cose a casaccio e non so se sia competenza del parlamento stabilire che un hiv deve avere riconosciuta un'invalidità del 75. Se lo facciamo, facciamolo bene. Io penso che le richieste vadano postate nel blog di grillo ma non lo so mica bene!
Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
ma a me della tua invalidità del 75 per cento frega niente e poi tu sei solo un opportunistafriendless ha scritto:Aspetta un attimo che ti dicano cosa chiedere però ... io ho solo buttato lì 2 cose a casaccio e non so se sia competenza del parlamento stabilire che un hiv deve avere riconosciuta un'invalidità del 75. Se lo facciamo, facciamolo bene. Io penso che le richieste vadano postate nel blog di grillo ma non lo so mica bene!
: non hai votato Grillo , io sì e lo posso dimostrare, tié!Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
L'avete letta l'intervista a Grillo fatta da New Scientist? Se no, buona lettura!
Beppe Grillo: Cronyism has hurt Italian science
Updated 17:50 04 March 2013 by Laura Margottini
Update: Following the publication of this interview, a number of readers have suggested that our correspondent should have pressed Grillo more closely on statements he has made about science in the past. We have invited Fabio Turone, president of the professional association Science Writers in Italy, to respond in the comments below.
Original article, published 27 February 2013:
In an exclusive interview, the comedian turned politician reveals how celebrating science and technology in his comedy act launched his political career
How did this adventure start?
In 2005 I had a blog, where people discussed topics such as a sustainable economy, renewable energy and broadband coverage. I also used to spread information about new technologies during my comedy shows – using YouTube on stage to show how they worked.
I started using my blog to get information about cities I was about to visit, asking followers what the main problems there were. Many mentioned misconduct of politicians, and other things I wanted to talk about during my shows.
Then, before a show in one city, local politicians called saying they would sue if I said something unpleasant. This was the sign that the blog was working! Since then, it has grown to become one of the first three blogs in the world.
Italy has big problems with internet coverage. How did a web movement become the first party of the nation?
I used my fame and my reputation and put myself at the disposal of the people, and they started to participate and discuss, first through the web and then face to face.
How did you make the transition from the web to in person events?
I used a website called Meetup.com, and in each city, people first communicated through the website and then met in person to discuss the problems of their city. After that, we decided to organise bigger events. At an event called the V Day held in several Italian cities, there were a million and a half people! What a surprise! There were also other cities connected via Skype – Milan, New York, London. In half a day, we collected around 350,000 signatures for a "clean parliament" law.
Many political movements are born on the Internet. But few manage to shift from protests to positions in government. What did you do differently?
We thought about the next stage, and also how to avoid street clashes. And the next stage was the civic list [through which people register as supporters of the new movement, and not existing political parties]. Civic lists have formed spontaneously and are now spreading like wildfire throughout the country.
At some point in your comedy shows, you started talking about science and technology. Soon people came to see you as much to be informed as to laugh. What drove this?
I started to be curious about what was behind everyday things – the path that a can of coke or pot of yogurt takes to reach us, for example, and how much this costs, what natural resources it consumes, how much it pollutes. And I began to understand the schizophrenic paths of our current economy.
So I turned to scientists and intellectuals to see if there were more sustainable paths ways to do things. Prominent scientists later wrote for my blog, discussed ideas. Lino Guzzella, the rector of ETH Zurich, came on stage at one of my shows to explain what the energy of the future will be.
Were there other widespread public discussions on topics like renewable energy in Italy at that time?
I would say no. The ideas of these intellectuals were in books, books most politicians obviously did not read. I studied them and then brought the ideas into my shows.
Why do you think politicians in Italy aren't looking to science and technology to help find a way out from economic crisis?
Over the last decades politicians have removed many valuable people from industry and the government, in order to substitute them with their friends. So you end up with people in positions of power who know nothing about research, technology, innovation, clean energy, sustainable economy. Nothing!
Now that you are in the government, what place will scientific research have in your program?
A primary place. One of our main objectives is to restore meritocracy within research and academia, where cronyism is also widespread. We also want to give money back to public research that is dying.
In the last two years, the government spent €1 billion on official cars and hundreds of millions of euros on private schools, while only €38 million went to basic research for 2013. Amazing!
How do Italian scientists view your Five Star Movement?
There are plenty of researchers on our civic lists. There are also many who live abroad who are ready to come back to help. They send us tons of tweets every day. In Italy, we have some of the best minds in the world and we have let them all go abroad. But if we give a strong signal of change, they will come back.
Questa la risposta di Fabio Turone:
Beppe Grillo: Cronyism has hurt Italian science
Updated 17:50 04 March 2013 by Laura Margottini
Update: Following the publication of this interview, a number of readers have suggested that our correspondent should have pressed Grillo more closely on statements he has made about science in the past. We have invited Fabio Turone, president of the professional association Science Writers in Italy, to respond in the comments below.
Original article, published 27 February 2013:
In an exclusive interview, the comedian turned politician reveals how celebrating science and technology in his comedy act launched his political career
How did this adventure start?
In 2005 I had a blog, where people discussed topics such as a sustainable economy, renewable energy and broadband coverage. I also used to spread information about new technologies during my comedy shows – using YouTube on stage to show how they worked.
I started using my blog to get information about cities I was about to visit, asking followers what the main problems there were. Many mentioned misconduct of politicians, and other things I wanted to talk about during my shows.
Then, before a show in one city, local politicians called saying they would sue if I said something unpleasant. This was the sign that the blog was working! Since then, it has grown to become one of the first three blogs in the world.
Italy has big problems with internet coverage. How did a web movement become the first party of the nation?
I used my fame and my reputation and put myself at the disposal of the people, and they started to participate and discuss, first through the web and then face to face.
How did you make the transition from the web to in person events?
I used a website called Meetup.com, and in each city, people first communicated through the website and then met in person to discuss the problems of their city. After that, we decided to organise bigger events. At an event called the V Day held in several Italian cities, there were a million and a half people! What a surprise! There were also other cities connected via Skype – Milan, New York, London. In half a day, we collected around 350,000 signatures for a "clean parliament" law.
Many political movements are born on the Internet. But few manage to shift from protests to positions in government. What did you do differently?
We thought about the next stage, and also how to avoid street clashes. And the next stage was the civic list [through which people register as supporters of the new movement, and not existing political parties]. Civic lists have formed spontaneously and are now spreading like wildfire throughout the country.
At some point in your comedy shows, you started talking about science and technology. Soon people came to see you as much to be informed as to laugh. What drove this?
I started to be curious about what was behind everyday things – the path that a can of coke or pot of yogurt takes to reach us, for example, and how much this costs, what natural resources it consumes, how much it pollutes. And I began to understand the schizophrenic paths of our current economy.
So I turned to scientists and intellectuals to see if there were more sustainable paths ways to do things. Prominent scientists later wrote for my blog, discussed ideas. Lino Guzzella, the rector of ETH Zurich, came on stage at one of my shows to explain what the energy of the future will be.
Were there other widespread public discussions on topics like renewable energy in Italy at that time?
I would say no. The ideas of these intellectuals were in books, books most politicians obviously did not read. I studied them and then brought the ideas into my shows.
Why do you think politicians in Italy aren't looking to science and technology to help find a way out from economic crisis?
Over the last decades politicians have removed many valuable people from industry and the government, in order to substitute them with their friends. So you end up with people in positions of power who know nothing about research, technology, innovation, clean energy, sustainable economy. Nothing!
Now that you are in the government, what place will scientific research have in your program?
A primary place. One of our main objectives is to restore meritocracy within research and academia, where cronyism is also widespread. We also want to give money back to public research that is dying.
In the last two years, the government spent €1 billion on official cars and hundreds of millions of euros on private schools, while only €38 million went to basic research for 2013. Amazing!
How do Italian scientists view your Five Star Movement?
There are plenty of researchers on our civic lists. There are also many who live abroad who are ready to come back to help. They send us tons of tweets every day. In Italy, we have some of the best minds in the world and we have let them all go abroad. But if we give a strong signal of change, they will come back.
Questa la risposta di Fabio Turone:
- Response
Tue Mar 05 11:16:24 GMT 2013 by Fabio Turone
Before expressing some critiques, I want to praise Laura Margottini and The New Scientist for the exclusive interview to Beppe Grillo: he is very difficult to catch, since he systematically refused to talk to the Italian media in recent times, so first of all I want to congratulate my colleague.
On the other hand, this unfriendly attitude Beppe Grillo showed towards the Italian media probably contributed to make the framing chosen for a short interview particularly strident for many readers in Italy.
I know that Italian affairs are typically impossible to shorten and simplify without losing some subtlety in the process, and in this case I think that Grillo and his movement ended up being depicted as very pro-science while the picture we see from Italy is much more complicated than that.
There is no doubt that Grillo had a positive role in discussing issues relevant for the environment, renewable energy and new technologies when they were not in the national agenda, but it is also true that he also presented in his shows a lot of crap about science, in a very appealing mixture of reasonable points (for instance against overmedicalisation and commercial pressure, or cronyism), funny jokes, and dramatically ill-informed statements, systematically refusing to correct himself afterwards. Some examples are given by Wired Italia a href="(long URL - click here) here /a , including claims that AIDS doesn't exist and that genetically-modified tomatoes have killed people. In May 2012, after an earthquake in central Italy, his website featured an interview with the controversial lab technician Giampaolo Giuliani (see the Columbia Journalism Review: http://www.cjr.org/the_observatory/the_ ... p?page=all), which was introduced like this (the video is still online): «Giampaolo Giuliani is capable of anticipating of 6 to 24 hours the appearance of earthquakes. His research on seismic precursors saved the lives of those who - in 2009 in Abruzzo and in these days in Emilia Romagna - listened to his alarms. Earthquakes kill by ignorance» (http://www.beppegrillo.it/2012/05/non_si_deve_mor.html). Useless to say, the scientific community tends to disagree ((long URL - click here).
More recently, during the campaign, despite being repeatedly invited directly and indirectly – along with other political candidates – he never answered 10 questions about science asked by an independent group of several hundreds among science journalists, bloggers, scientists and science lovers (called Dibattito Scienza and inspired by the US "Science Debate").
When a scientist – who was a Senate candidate for the movement - sent the answers telling that they were written by him and other people in the working groups of the movement, they were accepted as such, and published online with the answers from the other politicians, with exactly the wording requested as to their "unofficial" nature (seen from outside there seems to be nothing official in the movement except Grillo's leadership). The publication caused a violent reaction, and a request of retraction followed by surreal allegations of forgery and threats to sue for libel.
The fault? In response to a question about animal testing, that scientist had basically written that it must require great attention to ethical aspects but it is still needed, because there are no viable alternatives. According to some vociferous and violent posters, the official position of the movement – written somewhere in an old page of the blog – is that vivisection must be banned because it is useless.
So, I personally welcome interviews on science to Grillo and other Italian politicians. Please ask – also in our name - more questions, more often, and possibly leave more room for the answers. Italian politics is complicated, but your readers – which are many in Italy, more or less occasional – will appreciate you more and more.
By the way: due to oversimplification, in the interview Grillo is said to be "now in the Government", which is at the very least premature: he personally is not even elected in the Parliament (don't ask me why).
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friendless
Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
A me, l'aspetto dei grillini che più inquieta non è l'autoritarismo e il rischio di un fascismo, ma l'incompetenza e l'ignoranza. Oggi su minima moralia fanno notare che grillo ha travisato e citato a caso siomone weil
http://www.minimaetmoralia.it/wp/beppe- ... mone-weil/
su lipperatura riportano gli argomenti farlocchi della lombardi sulla decrescita
http://loredanalipperini.blog.kataweb.i ... /#comments
e poi le affermazioni sempre della lombardi sul periodo fascista ...
poi ieri a fahrenheit c'era un tizio che analizzava gli sfondoni dei grillini sulla "democrazia dal basso", oramai non è più ogni giorno, ogni ora ne viene alla luce una (di bestialità). Se non sono degli idioti, sono dei dilettanti allo sbaraglio. Ci manca solo che governino loro (e poi il fatto che vogliono uscire dall'euro ...)
http://www.minimaetmoralia.it/wp/beppe- ... mone-weil/
su lipperatura riportano gli argomenti farlocchi della lombardi sulla decrescita
http://loredanalipperini.blog.kataweb.i ... /#comments
e poi le affermazioni sempre della lombardi sul periodo fascista ...
poi ieri a fahrenheit c'era un tizio che analizzava gli sfondoni dei grillini sulla "democrazia dal basso", oramai non è più ogni giorno, ogni ora ne viene alla luce una (di bestialità). Se non sono degli idioti, sono dei dilettanti allo sbaraglio. Ci manca solo che governino loro (e poi il fatto che vogliono uscire dall'euro ...)
Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
Sì, questo qui è quello di cui parlavamo l'altro giorno, quello che ha scoperto la Luce grazie a quella spazzatura complottistica di Zeitgeist.friendless ha scritto:
http://corrieredibologna.corriere.it/bo ... 3178.shtml
da andarsi a nascondere ...
Chissà quanti la pensano come lui fra i grillini?
Chissà se, dopo questi, ci troveremo a rivalutare l'ignoranza della Gelmini, con il suo tunnel dei neutrini? La vedremo con nostalgia, pensando a come era sciocca e naive, ma in fondo quasi innocua?
Re: Ex governo Berlusconi - Ex Governo Monti e UE
mi sa che questi riusciranno a farci rimpiangere l'itaGliano di Antonio Di PietroDora ha scritto:Chissà se, dopo questi, ci troveremo a rivalutare l'ignoranza della Gelmini, con il suo tunnel dei neutrini? La vedremo con nostalgia, pensando a come era sciocca e naive, ma in fondo quasi innocua?
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